Sam Prasopthum

The Art of Pleasures gives an inside look into the realities of both sex workers and people within the BDSM/kink community. As artists, businesswomen, and educators, they are challenging the stigmas surrounding sex work, and are changing the way people think about an industry that many do not fully understand. The photographs are set in each model’s space, allowing them to create their own aesthetic where they are able to tell their story on their own terms. The project is accompanied by a zine that provides more depth into each model’s profession or art practice, the industry, and community.

To purchase the full zine please visit: http://www.lulu.com/shop/sam-prasopthum/the-art-of-pleasures/paperback/product-23502520.html

How long have you been working as pro- dommes?

Lucy Sweetkill: I've been almost 8 years maybe now. Yes, 8 years somewhere around there. But I've been dominate my whole life. My mother's very dominate. I'm very much like her, been playing with power dynamics pretty much my whole life. I've been exploring kinky things, the same things, since I've kind of went down sexual exploration but I just never had the vocabulary until I started participating and learning about BDSM in a pro-side and then reflecting back that I was doing a lot of that stuff already.

Dia Dynasty: I have been a professional for nine years now, and I have always been a pervert as well, meaning that my sexual proclivities were both precocious and strange. But I haven't always been dominant. I've been more, I would say, I've just kind of been more playful and kinky. Playing with power dynamics is actually something that strangely enough hasn't really come into play in my personal life until recently, like in the last six months. (laughs)

What kind of experience do you need to be a domme?

LS: I definitely think it takes a certain type of person. I would say for me I think one of the biggest things is someone who definitely has an open mind to sort of alternative ways of thinking because you're going to come across a lot of things that are considered taboo or weird in our realm more than any other type of sex work. Most other sex work kind of deals with very conventional ways of sex, right? We don't and it's very psychological in a lot of ways. And so, if you're really open minded to different ways I think that really helps.

DD: Yeah, I think there's also a willingness to be able to use your own sexual power to control a scenario. Being able to balance that out with the capacity to provide that as a service to other people so being able to compromise and negotiate at times.

LS: I think if you are inclined to kinkiness I think that really helps because sometimes power dynamics are not part of the play. Sometimes it's just two people who enjoy kinky stuff. And so, not everyone wants the power dynamics. I really enjoy the power dynamics, but if somebody else enjoys some of the same activities I do I don't need that power dynamic to be there. Sometimes people who only enjoy the power dynamic don't enjoy the play. It's a problem because you're not always going to have that power dynamic. Not everyone's going to want to feel below you. I think that's a misconception people have about kink and BDSM that they really think that there is someone on top and someone on the bottom and that's not necessarily it. You know, they call it play in partnerships sometimes because of that. You know, I come across a lot of women who want to get into being a pro-domme because they really think, "Oh, I just want to be the boss, and this person should do whatever I say and that's how it goes". But it doesn't work that way, it really doesn't, you can't just like, enslave someone and you could be however you want and they be nothing without understanding all the other things. It's almost like the play's the thing that kind of coerces them to want to serve you.

So, you were talking about it earlier, you have a Periscope about extending the BDSM experience. Do you also hold other educational events or is it just through the Periscope?

LS: Well that's our start. A big part of why we created La Maison du Rouge was not only like a physical space for play and for gatherings of other pro-dommes and went in to create this beautiful female dominated space. But a big part of what we wanted to do with La Maison du Rouge is educate, you know, educate, demystify, normalize is like the three keywords I'd like to say. So we said we wanted a platform that was a little different from a regular pod cast because when you see someone talk you know that visual so I think it's really important. Periscope was a really great, you know, really great application for that because people can watch you and ask questions in real time. Then it's saved and so people can see it again. So, we started off with that which is basically a live podcast, which we do, and we wanted to do that and then from there we've kind of been expanding. We've been asked to talk on panels, talk at classes. Sometimes we do performances so we're always looking to expand different ways to connect to not only the community but to the public. And in a way that is truly representative of BDSM and kink and not somebody else's voice but people who are actually in it.

DD: Yeah, and we think it's really important to represent ourselves as real people. And that, you know, on our Periscope I feel like we are pretty approachable, I guess, yeah. Like people do have the option where they can ask us questions because it's live and interactive whereas a podcast is not. And so that's one of the perks of Periscope versus podcasts. Also, you know, BDSM isn't just like bondage discipline, you know power dynamics. And s and m it's something that can be like--there's principles of BDSM such as consent and safe spaces that can be applied into all of life. There is an aspect of sexual wellness and wellness in general that can be applied to other aspects of life, and there is a aspect of spirituality as well. So, all of these intersections are things that we address as well.

LS: Yeah cause the big part of demystifying what we do not only as pro-dommes, which is the sex worker aspect, but BDSM, is the fact that there are other things in BDSM that people don't realize that they can apply to their own life--about communication, you know, communication is so key and this is a way to communicate in your normal life too about boundaries and knowing how to express yourself. And you know, listening to other people and also acceptance. There's so much acceptance and learning how to not judge people for their interests. And so all those apply in regular life. Also, what we try to do with normalizing and kind of demystifying sex work is the fact that while we try to portray ourselves in Periscope as approachable normal people is also kind of twisting that idea. We're not just your fantasy, we like to play with fantasy and that's great, but we are human beings, we're women, and you still need to treat us like that. It's also a legitimate business, you know, we run everything we do as a business like any other business and you have to treat us that way too. So it's kind of like trying to regain power in stuff that for a long time we have no power over. So I think that's a big part of it.

How do you think we can make the sex industry a safer more ethical inclusive space?

LS: Well first off, we need to decriminalize sex work. There's been lots of studies that have shown that when women's sex work is criminalized it actually makes it worse for the women and sex workers. Case studies have been done about sex work in different countries, like India, where they have whole sex work communities that run their own banks, run their own schools, run their own community as a huge community and they work really well. They also provide sexual health and safety for all these women. And Amnesty itself, you know, Amnesty International has said they have a policy where they have said that sex work should be decriminalized. I think that's one of the things that we really hope, you know, all around.

DD: I didn’t know, that that's really interesting. I think two things. First of all, sex work is voluntary and sex trafficking is involuntary, and a lot of people get those two confused. They're not the same thing and when you conflate them you're endangering sex traffickers, but you're endangering everybody. You think that you are rescuing some people but you're actually endangering other people.

LS: It's like the idea of sex and rape. It's the same thing.

DD: Yeah, consent! That's the biggest mark of one versus the other and no one should be forced to work at like McDonald's either.

LS: It's the same thing. Sex work doesn't mean you're forced to do it. No one should be forced to do any job. So trafficking is forcing someone to do it.

DD: It's unfortunate and we're certainly not condoning people who traffic in sex work or trafficking, you know, that's more like coerced--I mean that's like coerced rape. Anyway, the fundamental issue is that people see sex as unholy and unnecessary except for procreation. So, there's a lot of religious fundamentalists that are against sex, and that is kind of a root problem of our culture. If you can honor that, that excess that humans are sexual beings and that sex is a part of life, and a part of autonomy, power and that pleasure is not a luxury, it's a necessity, and it's something that we should all get to experience then sex doesn't become this dirty thing that only whores do, you know? Even if you are in a monogamous relationship with somebody and they want to experience sex outside of this monogamous relationship I, in my being a sex worker, who has gone through regular testing and always uses protection and knows about pleasure in sex versus somebody else who may not be, the smarter option would be to go to a sex worker. Sex workers provide a safe space for people to experience pleasure in a very discreet and sustainable way. I think that is a part of life that a lot of people in our culture are not acknowledging as important and therapeutic even. So those are two fundamental things.

Can you briefly explain what BDSM and kink is for people who aren't familiar?

DD: Oh yeah. So BDSM and kink are kind of interchangeable for the most part. And so, BDSM is an umbrella term for an alternative way of approaching sexuality, B and D mean bondage and discipline. And then S and M is sadism and masochism or sadomasochism, and then inside of the BDSM is d/s which is something that I alluded to earlier as dominant and submissive which is the power dynamic play. Not all of those components need to be present but at least some component of that, and then kink can represent something that's even broader where there's fetish involved, which is arousal from objects or materials, sexual arousal, and then it can also encompass things that aren't necessarily bondage or power dynamics, like feminization, cross-dressing or like adult baby play and age play.

LS: Yeah, I think kink represents the unconventional sexuality. So, you know, just having sex, you can't be like, "Oh, I have a kink for putting my penis in a vagina. But you can be like, "You know, I'm kinky because I'm into being crossed dressed and then spanked. So, it's more of the stuff that's more unconventional.

What advice do you have for people who are interested in the BDSM community but don't really know where to start?

LS: I would say the internet is a beautiful thing even though there's a lot of bad information. There's also a lot of great information and a lot of books. I do recommend starting from a fantasy. Sometimes that can help by like, what porn do you watch? You know, and so again, porn is an extreme version of sex but if someone watches porn and they get a little aroused by say, extreme ball busting, they may not want the extreme ball busting but they may want a little bit of cock and ball torture, and that's okay! All that you see can be dialed down and that's a really great way to start. What are things that peek your interest and research those things. Start off with one activity. Maybe the thought of getting tied up sounds hot, so look up bondage classes in your area that you might be able to go to, do some reading. There's tons of bondage books. There's tons of material out there and doing your research is the biggest thing.

DD: Yeah, do your research and then I think finding play partners that are compatible, like in every single way, is really difficult especially if you live in a big city. But it's not impossible. Then I would even say play by yourself, like if you're really into bondage tie yourself up. Do the research and make sure that you're doing it safely, but play with yourself and see what that's like for you so that when you play with somebody else you'll know how to interact with them in a safe way.

Sam: Can you start off by explaining what you do and for how long?

Cristine: I’m Cristine, and I do rope bondage. I mostly top which means I tie other people up and I tie myself up as well, so self-suspension. It has been 3 or 4 years. I only started doing suspension work in the last year and a half.

Do you get a lot of requests from people to do rope bondage on them?

It's only been a few times, but yeah, I get lots of messages on Instagram from people asking me to tie them up. Usually it's not something I'm interested in doing but if they seem cool, maybe. I’m shy and it’s a lot of work and labor and it’s not something I do for anyone off the street. There’s been some really cool queer couples who want to get tied up and they’ll just ask me and we’ll talk about it. The last one I did was really cool cause my friend who is a photographer came and took really cool photos of them.

I believe sex workers to be healers that bring joy, pleasure and balance back into the world. Do you feel that way about your rope art practice?

Firstly, I wanted to clarify that I do not identify as a sex worker, I’m not a professional in that people don’t pay me for sex or to get off in any kind of way. However, people do pay me to tie them up but it's not very often, once every couple weeks probably. I haven't really thought about what I do in a way that resonates with anything healing but recently I’ve had some friends who kind of hinted that what I do is healing, and I completely agree that sex workers are healers. People who can’t experience certain desires in their personal lives seek out sex workers to give them things they have been wanting or needing and I think that’s amazing. If everyone was liberated and felt completely comfortable in their sexuality and their desires then maybe we wouldn’t necessarily need sex workers, I mean probably still, but it would be not as taboo and seen in a much more positive light. I think the idea of healing is that rope bondage can very easily put people in a space that is very subdued and otherworldly. So being completely incapacitated, not in control of your body, and not having to worry about anything for an hour, or however long the session lasts, is really powerful for some people who have a hard time, myself included, relinquishing control in life. Sometimes people go into what’s called subspace very easily and quickly, some people don’t and I guess it just depends on the person. That experience of being completely out of control and almost accessing a different space within yourself that you can’t do alone, like someone has to put you there it’s really cool and it’s why I think rope bondage for the people who are really into is kind of an addiction because of the way it makes you feel.

How did you start doing rope bondage?

The official story is I had a threesome fantasy with my ex-girlfriend where we were going to find some babe who wanted to sleep with us and co-top her, tie her up, and have various kinds of fun so that kind of kicked off my interest in rope. I started learning how to tie cause I was practicing for whatever was going to happen with that fantasy scenario. I started getting more into doing intricate ties, like pretty decorative rope, on myself. I tied myself a lot, practiced a lot, then gradually started tying other people and getting pretty serious about learning and expanding my skills. I had no idea when I started--you know you can be doing this for ten years and still be learning new things cause everyone’s body is different and tying different bodies is very different.

When did you become aware of your sexuality and when did you start to explore it?

That’s a really interesting question. I guess I’ve always been very much like carefree or I guess not caring about what other people think of me since I was young and I didn’t really explore a lot of my sexuality when I was a kid. I did lots of slutty things in middle school and then I didn’t date anyone until college. Even then I was not aware completely of what I like, you know, I think it takes a very long time to figure that out. I guess my mid-twenties I started dating people who were interested more in BDSM and weird freaky stuff and that sort of gave me, I wouldn’t say confidence, but you can’t do a lot of this stuff by yourself so I had a license to explore more. It’s never been quite about comfortability but it does take a long time to figure out what you like and what you want if you're not choosing partners who aren’t interested in exploring with you. I had a lot of relationships where it was very--the people that I dated were pretty vanilla and not really open--and you know being surrounded by amazing sex positive sex workers like queer folk who are all into BDSM and this community and culture is really empowering because I’m not ever really subjected to people who think what I do is weird or disgusting it’s more like this is an average day you’re getting tied up over there in the corner.

How do you think social media plays a role in the BDSM community?

I think before Instagram it was Tumblr and Tumblr is very much a sub culture of people that use it. Not everyone I know has a Tumblr account but everyone I know has an Instagram account. I also think right now it’s really trendy to be queer, it’s trendy to do sex work, which is problematic for many reasons, and it’s really trendy to either co-opt BDSM culture or actually participate in BDSM culture. What I mean by co-opt is like fashion, dressing the part but not actually partaking. Zana Bayne is a part of that--pushing BDSM and leather culture which comes from queer culture and pushing that into the mainstream, so like Susie Q on the street is wearing a leather harness and has no fucking idea where that comes from which is really upsetting for people who are actually a part of that community and that culture. I think that Instagram helps that happen, which is kind of bad but it also helps people explore their sexualities. It’s a vanilla photo sharing platform and you can easily stumble upon someone whose doing crazy rope bondage and posting photos that are Instagram safe that open your mind and expose people to things that they would never see on a regular basis. I also tie up a lot of larger bodies which is not something you see if you’re actually seeking out rope bondage fetish photography. It’s not something you see at all so people who are heavier think they can’t do rope bondage or are insecure because when rope is tight it cuts into fat and they see like I tie up fat people and I love the way that it looks so I’m very passionate about putting out images of like non-normative beauty standards in rope bondage and every single time people comment about how empowering it is and like omg I didn’t even think I could do this thank you so much. so, Instagram and I guess Tumblr are great because they do expose people to things they would never see before but it’s also so easy to pretend you’re someone else on the internet and co-opt an identity that is not your real identity.

Sam: Do you want to start with your name and what you do?

Lindsay: My name is Lindsay Dye. I am an artist, cam girl, and sex worker of many different types.

How long have you been camming and doing sex work?

LD:It started with camming and that was while I was in grad school about six years ago. I went into it exclusively trying to make money on the side and it was something that I did think would be easy. It was not easy and didn't make that much money but it was such incredible juice for my art making and immediately started making work about the experience of camming and about the other people that were camming, like the other women on the site that I considered my co-workers. The first project that came out of it was a clothing line inspired by the women. It's the cam girl dresses and tops and that was the first project that came out of it, but totally went in it for the money came out of it as like, it is, and has been, the basis of my work for the past six years.

Do you want to explain how much work goes into camming?

LD: So it is like any other job. Also, when I describe it to people it's not an interview process with one person but you do submit your Social Security. You still have to file taxes. It is a totally legit job that you have to be responsible for like any other job, and along the same lines of any other job I was trying to escape a 9 to 5. But I realized that if I want to make the money that I need to make I still have to spend 8 hours online a day to be able to pay my rent and do all the other things I want to do that have to do with my art. So, I might have escaped 9 to 5 and those are the hours I don't have to work and I can choose my hours but I still have an eight hour day. I'm also able to split it up which is good too and finding out the best times to work, what time you're on, in relation to what time it is on the other side of the country, like those things matter. Like who you are interacting with and who your base is going to be. Then the work is actually just being there every day and sticking with it through the years so that you can build your own community of people that are going to support you every time you sign on. Those are regulars but those are also people there that not just financially support you but emotionally support everyone in the

room, and yeah, if that's not something that you put passion and energy into every single day others aren't going to respond or be there for you.

Can you talk some more about your art and your performance art, because I recently saw you perform at Transville, which was awesome, so do you want to talk about the concept and meaning behind it?

LD: I started performing cam shows live, so what was supposed to be done in a private place I wanted to take out into public. I definitely saw it as an experimentation with audiences and layers with audiences. So, just taking my computer literally into a public public setting, like a gallery, and getting a layered audience of people who are actually watching me online who expect more. And then this totally different audience that comes in and is expecting art. What are the boundaries and what are the negotiations between those two things? How dependent are they on the audience you're bringing in? Then even further, how the audience changes once they realize what they're watching. So, someone can come in and recognize this is art. They can also recognize it as pornography and leave as someone that will come into my chat room later on in the same way that I've had chat room members come to my art shows. Making that switch and making it all come together shows that the lines are very blurred for what these two things are. What I also wanted to do was act out fetishes that you could only find in like, weird corners of the Internet and act those out in person. Again it's an audience type play but it's also something that you really only see through a screen because it's such a niche, untapped thing, and where would this happen in person if it were to be done? So the cake sitting was and is the first fetish that I've acted out. To tie it back into my work, I use a lot of music in my work, and so I started singing while I was sitting on the cakes and the songs are all songs from my childhood. They're mostly R. Kelly songs like, heavily influential men in my life that certainly also influenced my sexuality in the way that I thought about women and men and how they were supposed to interact. I feel like old school R&B that I was listening to really fits in with this strange fetish that I'm bringing in and combining the two. It's very much a fetish that already exists but then adding an element of my pre-teen sexuality with this music makes for a really strange mixture that also doesn't exist. I didn't want to act out something that just already existed. Like the cake sitting, I needed a Lindsay something to bring in there and to mix it up with.

Is it difficult to meet and make friends in the industry?

LD: I've been able to pretty much exclusively meet people in my community, the sex industry, through Instagram. That has been like the only way, and what I wanted to tell you with my sex work job search was I was trying to get out of the house so that I could be more a part of a community of people that are doing the same things. The first place that I went to was a massage place and it didn't work since it's just one girl at a time, so it's not a collective of women. Then I've been going to strip clubs which, it is a group of women, but we're all there hustling at the same time so it's not like we can talk and connect but it feels good to be in the same room with them and feed off that energy. I really like dancing and I like doing it with other people. But aside from trying to find these other outlets for finding community it is totally isolating if you just cam all the time. As much as I'd like to get to know the other women on the site it's almost impossible. It's not like meet ups are offered for us. There would have to be something totally arranged from the side and then on top of everything women in this industry are just hustling every single day. There is no downtime. You're constantly working with other people's schedules too, I mean like any other job. Yeah. It's hard. But there are really great women in New York that I've been able to meet, but again, it's exclusively through social media. There needs to be something else. Just thinking about this this collective of girls that I do have, whenever I'm going to a new job I text them all, "Hey I'm at this address this is where I'm going", so I'm thankful that I have people that care enough that I'm going into something new and I don't know what to expect and don't know where I am. But that just shows you that our jobs are also scary. We have to tell each other where we're going out of fear that we might not finish that job. It's a crazy anxiety to live with everyday, which is why I started the camming. If we're looking at all of sex work camming seems to be the safest because you can say in your house, but also the most isolating. Then on the total other end like, full on prostituter hooker, you might get to be around other women that you like but you're also on the front lines of putting your body out there and you never know what's going to happen.

How do you feel about Instagram and social media playing a role in sex work?

LD: That's another thing I've done with my audiences. I do not share my cam link, my cam name, or any of my porn that I've ever made with my Instagram. My Instagram followers know that I'm a cam girl but that I also make art about it and that's what I share. I've done this weird thing where I've tried my best to keep my audiences separate because I don't know what it means to put them all together. I wanted it straight in my head that if I'm going on Instagram I'm going to be interacting with art and friends. If I'm going onto my cam site I'm going to be interacting with my chat room people who know about camming. The moment you mix them I feel like it would be friends in my personal life interacting with my camming, and then the camming interacting with my personal life. I've done so much work to keep that separate. I know it's going to happen one day but I'm very conscious of how I'm playing it right now. Whereas, I feel like most sex workers have a private account and you know their first name or you don't, and then they have their public sex worker account where they sell their work, which is awesome and I want to make that transition. But I'm scared like, it's all out of fear really.

Do you have any recommendations for independent creators?

LD: There is this woman owned production company called Four Chambers. It's run by Ashley Vex, she goes by Vextape. She started as a cam girl and now is just like a full on producer/porn star. The films that she produces are just like extremely moody and, I don't want to say from a female perspective, they are from a female perspective but like, they are--it's still porn. Ah. I don't know how to describe it. They are artistic and you almost feel like you're not watching porn but then you see dick and ass and titties, so it is but it's beautiful. She just has a lot of creative ideas and so I really believe in her production company.

Sam: Would you like to introduce yourself and tell us a little about what you do?

Talia: I’m Talia Satania, I’m 23, I am a model, a sex worker, I guess that's a broad term, I make a lot of different stuff--I make erotic content, I do phone sex, I model, it's a whole lot of stuff.

What is your definition of sex work?

I feel like sex work is any job that deals with sex. That includes stripping, in person sex workers, escorts, dominatrix, those fetish providers, that includes cam girls, you know I would even consider burlesque in the sex work community. Obviously, people who make porn even if it's homemade.

Do you want to talk a little bit more about the work you do?

As far as making videos, I started doing it two years ago and I started doing boy/girl type stuff with my partner at the time and I would come up with a broad aspect of what I would want to shoot or make a list of categories that I could base videos off of. Then we would set up to shoot, shoot for a couple hours, get a couple videos done and then I would have a bunch of stuff to edit. Then I sit down to edit and prepare everything like color correct, fix audio, and cut everything. Once I have the file ready I catalog it in my series of folders of smut and then I put it up on all my sites.

How do you get it out and how do people approach you about it?

I have a couple different clips stores on different websites because there's a variety of pretty big independent porn sites like amateur type stuff but they each have their own niche/market so I try to put as many videos on each site. It's better to offer a variety of content on a variety of different platforms. Once I upload it there I have to write a description, write my keywords, do all that kind of stuff and decide how much I want to price them for, and then either before or after I do that I usually make a bunch of gifs of the videos so I can use them for advertising on twitter or just to promote the videos or my store. I make 5-6 gifs per videos so I can get a good idea of a preview without actually having to give too much of the video away. Then I’ll start promoting it on social media.

How many hours a week do you spend on creating content?

For videos, it depends. I like to shoot as much as I can in one day so that way I can just edit stuff over time and release it slowly. I would say overall, I work more than 40 hours a week doing a variety of things between phone sex, doing skype shows, shooting, editing and doing social media and queuing up my Patreon pledge sites. There's so many things to do like there’s never a shortage of ways that I can be promoting, working and hustling.

Do you have one niche you like to do the most?

As far as videos when I was doing a lot more boy/girl content I was selling a lot of blowjob stuff, like boy/girl stuff in general. Femmedom is like a really good market to get into even if you don’t find yourself necessarily dominant, just because it’s really in high demand at all times like there’s no shortage of sub dudes that want to buy content. They’re willing to spend it because it's a part of the whole psychology of the fetish.

What do you think of the internet and how social media plays a role in the sex work industry?

I feel like our society not wanting to pay for any sort of entertainment in general, porn is the last thing anyone is going to pay for and that mentality has really hurt the adult industry as far as media sales. The fact that you can pirate stuff makes it super easy, like there’s plenty of people that go around clip sites and buy peoples clips and then upload them elsewhere. I don’t know why it's not like they're making money off of it. It's just a scummy thing to do and it shows the value that society places on sex workers because no one wants to pay money to watch a movie they’re just going to download it online or download music but like people aren’t even willing and some people are willing to change their mind and be like oh I’ll pay this amount of money for you know Spotify subscriptions per month so theoretically the artist is getting some money back but in pennies per listen, but like people aren't even willing to do that for porn. that's not even a consideration. Obviously, there’s a community of people willing to pay cause there's a lot of models that exist and cam people, but it's not the same as it used to be. The adult industry is not making the same amount of money or at least the performers aren’t making the same amount of money they used to be because of tube sites and the belief that entertainment shouldn't be paid for.

How do you react to people assuming that sex is “easy money”?

Maybe it looks easy but that's just the perception that people are putting out on the internet. it's definitely hard work especially like a lot of the people that choose this industry choose it because they’re able to work freelance in their own hours because they have to deal with other things like family issues or mental illness or other traumatic life shit or challenging things they have to work around and sex work offers the freedom to make their own schedule and be their own boss.

How did you start to explore your sexuality?

I was in fifth or sixth grade when I started to question what sex was. I grew up kind of religious so I was sheltered from a lot of that shit. I didn't understand it, ya know? So I would look up what porn was on the internet and then I think my mom looked at the search history and I got in trouble or some stupid shit but I was generally curious. after that I started exploring my sexuality through masturbation I would watch a lot of tv and it wasn't anything erotic but I would masturbate to it. I would say around 16 I started to really delve into porn and I started getting into BDSM type stuff and looking into fetishes I was into. I was also really into girl/girl porn too guy/girl porn didn't really do anything for me.

How do you find people to collab with for your videos?

I usually work with other sex workers, usually they are female or nonbinary people, I've worked with my male partners in real life, like people I'm dating, I've worked with people I've hooked up with that are comfortable being on camera or other male sex workers. we just find each other through the internet. The community is pretty big but small at the same time so it's not hard to find other people and a lot travel through since I live in a bigger city.

Do you have any advice for those who want to discover their kinks but don’t know where to start?

I think that just takes a willingness to want to know more about your sexuality or discover it. The people that are internally shamed or dealing with guilt because of their sexuality for whatever reason, religion, family, society, norms whatever those people are going to have to either live with that or decide they don't want to do that anymore and take those steps. I think it's just taking the time to try new things and be open to doing things for yourself or your partner. There are a lot of things I tried for work that I thought I would never be into but I ended up really enjoying. 

Do you want to start off with your names and what you both do?

Xoe: I'm Xoe and I cam, model and make porn.

Snash: I'm Snash and I just recently started being an adult performer this month, so I'm learning the ropes (laughs).

Do you want to talk about what goes on before you do a shoot and how you prepare?

X: Well, in my experience, the whole process takes weeks, sometimes months, because getting to know people online takes time. You find people, connect, and then we exchange ideas and then getting comfortable with working with that person. Sometimes you meet a few times, sometimes you don't, sometimes you just show up and work together. That can take anywhere between two to six hours in an independent shoot, and that's pretty short in the grand scheme of things. But a lot of work goes into that, and, sometimes, it can take a few weeks, maybe a month or two months, to edit and to put everything together. You want music you want other things depending on how much footage you have, but basically the time you spend on shooting is just doing all of these things and then compiling it--it's a lot of work.

Can you elaborate more about your video work?

X: Well I do a variety of things, there are still things that I want to do that I haven't done yet. My first professional job was a threesome with another femme and a guy, and that was very interesting. But I want to do more things like that. Since then, I've only done just stuff with one other person, but I want to do more group sex when it comes to working with other people who also work independently. You get something different every single time. That's what I like.

Have you worked with any independent producers here that you really like, that you think people should know about?

X: Yeah, I worked with Rococo Royalle, her production company is in Lost Garden. They do very specifically queer porn that's ethically made with lots of different people, body types, and sexual interests. I've done a few videos with them, so I highly recommend them. I worked with Four Chambers, and they're also really good. Vex is great.

This is another question I ask everyone. How did you first discover/explore your sexuality?

X: I guess my first exposure to anything: my father was a journalist, and he went to his local newspaper back in my country, and they always released it on Sundays. It's just like a newspaper with nude models and he would have original photographs in envelopes in his apartment. And I was looking for some family pictures and I stumbled over them. I was like, "Oh, a girl spread out on a horse." I was just like "Oh..." (laughs). But yeah that was my first experience.

What do you think about social media and the Internet playing a role in sex work even though the internet may be great for exposure there are a lot of issues with independent creators' work getting stolen?

X: In terms of accessibility, people who want to do porn but don't want to do mainstream or just have different ideas: that's what the Internet is so good for. You have all the tools that you need to just be DIY. Just do your thing. And I also worry about creative control, people using your image in a way you don't want. But of course, the downside is the piracy and that whole thing costs us. We're fucking broke, and this is our main source of income, and they take money out of our pockets. When they do that, it's really hard. So, who's going to pay the actors? At this point, it's sort of the cost of doing business. It's like upside and downside. But luckily, I file DMC forms every day. I don't give up. That kind of thing.

How did you first start getting into directing videos?

X: I just started initially just doing solo stuff with my webcam and I guess that was the very beginning. Then when I started working with other people, I just realized that I really liked coming up with ideas and conceptualizing videos. I'm just inspired by so many things. So, with the cinematography, it's just fun to be behind the camera. Also, being in front of the camera is a weird dual process. When I started working with other people, that's when it came to me, because first I just thought of myself as just a performer. But I like to do more things with it.

You mentioned you cammed do you still cam?

X: I resumed camming, because I stopped with the intention of not going back. Then I started on Chaturbate maybe a month ago. So, I'm back (laughs).

What is your experience with camming like?

X: Camming was my first, like sex work experience, that was my introduction. I started on MFC, and I knew nothing. And now I know so much. I'm kind of jaded, and don't want to do it anymore. But I will say this: I enjoy being on a site that seems to care about their models a bit more. And Chaturbate is more inclusive since MFC is just biological women.

Do you usually talk to the person you're going to work with before the shoot?

X: We always go over our limits, what we like, the stuff we want to avoid, you know, that kind of thing. We talk about it, and in a way, it is like a verbal contract. Other people have hard limits, it's important to speak up before - maybe have a safe word - before the actual filming happens.

I believe sex workers bring joy, pleasure, and balance into the world. Do you feel that way about your work?

S: Yesterday I had a thing like that where I'm starting to memorize some of the usernames that come on the room for camming. And I was like "Oh hey! Shady is his name," and I was like "How are you doing?" He's like "Oh. it's an OK day, but I'm doing much better now that I've seen you." And I'm like, "Holy shit, okay cool." It took five seconds to make someone's day.

X: We add so much light to a space that people view as dark. It's very behind the door, under the bed, and it's in all of these different places. It's open, it's fun, and there's laughter.

Do you see yourself continuing producing/directing porn for you know many more years?

X: Yes, I see myself doing this for as long as I possibly can, like there's so many people that I want to work with and so many things and projects that I want to do. I get such a big thrill out of it. This really has just added so much to my life and has created so many great connections with people in the industry. So, yeah I'd like to do like, you know, better quality projects and bigger things.

How can porn become an ethical safe work environment?

X: Having clear communication is very important. Even if you have to write stuff down and exchange your yes and no's, your do's and don'ts. Getting tested often and exchanging results is also important, because there is a stigma that once you do porn, you're riddled with disease, and it causes a lot of problems for us in society. It's not anyone's business, but at the same time, you want to dispel those things.

I guess working with people who understand that it's a job and we're not gathering in a basement doing weird stuff. It's legit. And just choosing people who want to do porn, who are comfortable doing it, giving performers the space and creativity to do what they really like doing is so important. Whether it's an expression or gender or their sexuality, we need to see more of those things. Everyone has seen the boy/girl stuff and those things are great too, but it would be nice to have a variety and see other perspectives since that's what sex is.